Boxes and Bones

[Palehorse]

Boxes and Bones

Here we are 2k years later, and the actual remains of a man called Jesus have been discovered. Millenniums have gone by, and in that time Christianity has grown from a gentle/kinder way of life, into a multi-billion dollar global business entity that wields power, influence and generates great wealth for those smart enough to figure out how to properly manipulate it to support their own means. They even have schools for this. And by now billions of generations world-wide have a pre-disposition toward automatic acceptance of its teachings and ways.

This has the potential to wreck everything for Christian Leadership should the discovery end up undermining the most basic of the biblical premises surrounding the physical ascension of Jesus unto the heavens. In fact, it could potentially prove he was a mortal man, with mortal needs and desires; of which he took full advantage of in taking a wife and fathering a child. As usual though, the Christian methodology will surround such thinking as; "Ah! But we have already conditioned our loyal subjects to unquestioningly accept everything we say! We can dismiss this theory as hogwash, and everyone will rally behind us."

Not possible you say? Really? The historical record indicates it is not only possible, but in fact very likely

There is far too much wealth and power at stake for them to accept any proof that comes at the hands of science and humankind. Humankind has bastardized the word of God, the intentions of God, and the path of humankind to suit its needs. The proof is all around you and within the historical records. Those that call themselves followers of the Christ put their faith in a book that was written and edited by men. Men that have an ulterior motive and with greed that goes hand-in-hand with being human. Yet we find them so readily accepting of these words, and blinded by a false faith in an ill-conceived assembly of incomplete letters, that they automatically oppose the scientific works of today that may provide empirical evidence that supports they are wrong.

If DNA science is such positive proof of an alleged crime against humankind, and humankind so readily accepts this science, then why would these same methods and scientific facts ring so false if they were to prove that Jesus was a human being, with feelings, needs, desires, and a life, just like the rest of us? One word - greed. Combined with the fact that humanity would have to admit that we are (and were) all human!

No faith in the very same science that daily convicts criminals? The very same science that has proven that pre-historic man and dinosaurs existed and allows us to reconstruct what they looked like, ate, and how they lived? How is it that you can accept these things but not the possibility that Jesus Christ was a man?

Analysis of the DNA that was available to the researchers concluded that the Jesus son of Joseph, and the Mariamne remains were not related.  The placement of a female that is not blood related within a family tomb, (Back then), only occurred when a marriage had taken place; thus the conclusion and statement that the DNA evidence suggests that they were married.

I find it interesting that the "James Brother of Jesus" ossuary has been shown to have likely come from this same tomb, and it has not been deemed a "fraud" as previously reported within the media . . .

The documentary "The Lost Tomb of Jesus" really gave me reason to further ponder this. I also found it interesting that the Jewish leadership refuses to provide the actual remains for detailed DNA analysis. Leads one to suspect that there may be some validity to this whole line of thought. On one hand I can see how the Christian leadership would fight tooth and nail to avoid a scientific exploration of the facts surrounding these remains and the tomb; for it would virtually provide the foundation for an event that will rock the religion to its very core and eliminate all of its personal wealth and power generation ability. What I do not understand is the inclination the Jewish sector seems to be demonstrating in blocking such an exploration of the facts. Aren't they the ones who have always maintained that Jesus was not the messiah, not the Son of God? Well, here's an opportunity to bolster their position/argument, isn't it?

The whole thing needs to be investigated in depth; with all of the available science and technology required to ensure as accurate a picture as possible.

Saying it is so doesn't make it so; however the testing that has been performed was conducted by professionals within the various fields, (DNA, religious leaders, historians, etc.), and while very few of them (if any) are willing to come right out and say this IS the tomb of Jesus of Nazareth, statistically it would appear very likely that this is the case.

An in depth DNA profile of the remains could potentially answer the question more definitively via confirming the genetic relationship between each individual that was within the tomb. (As it is, the DNA profiles obtained were derived from tissue and bone fragments remaining within the containers, after possession of the bones was provided to religious leadership).

The statistical probability of this combination of names occurring in the same tomb, within a family that was not that of Jesus of Nazareth, is rather low when the container that was scribed with "James brother of Jesus" (ic?) is included within the contents of this tomb. (Particulate/patina analysis of this container indicates it did indeed come from the very same tomb). ~ this information is also available at discovery.com

Admittedly, there is an awful lot of work that needs to be done before anyone should take a definitive stance in saying that this IS the tomb of Jesus and his family; however one has to admit that it seems on the surface to be the case, and the ramifications of it being proven to be so are overwhelmingly sure to rock the very foundations of the Christian religion.

Now, a DNA profile of Jesus of Nazareth and Joseph (Mary's husband) that indicates relationship between Jesus and Joseph, well . . . so much for Immaculate Conception! If Mariamne was the wife of Yose, James, or Matthew a simple DNA analysis of the remains of  Judah (Son of Jesus) would clear this up now wouldn't it. At least partially. It would either include or exclude Mariamne as the mother of Judah. And what of this Matthew? Was he the brother of Maria? Again, DNA analysis would prove this one way or another. What about Simon, Miram, and Salome? Were they the brothers of this Jesus, or extended family members as well?  Bottom line is that science can bring answers to this whole thing and we've wasted 27 years; only to be further exasperated by the stonewalling of the orthodox religious leadership to allow this analysis to take place.

I'm sorry, but I find it really amusing to watch all of the hard line Christians blather about, post the premier of the "Lost Tomb of Jesus" documentary. . . The alluded to facts in this case carry some rather serious implications for Christianity and its future; if they are proven to be factual and can be backed up via scientific evidence. (Which on the suface appears to be the case).

A good question is just why these "bone-boxes" have sat for twenty seven years in a warehouse, with no investigation being conducted, etc. And it is one the producers ask of those responsible for it. More attention was paid to the tomb/bone-box of the priest that condemned Christ; and all of this very same science was utilized in establishing that this was indeed the priest who condemned him. And all of this work was fully endorsed and accepted by the Christian church and its leaders throughout the world. Now why the change? (I've already presented my theory on why).

And the look on that researcher's face when he was asked why he put so much effort into identifying the remains of the priest that condemned Jesus, and not into a set of ossuaries that contained the names of the family of Jesus and Jesus himself? Priceless!

If you sit upon a jury in judgment of another man accused of murder, and the proof provided consists of DNA analysis/evidence, would you convict him?

Moreover, these things would lead to the questioning of the whole Bible and its content; lending validity to the argument that it is nothing more than a highly edited assembly of selected letters and stories. In turn this would lead to a mass exodus of membership and support within the various sects. This wouldn't bring Christianity to a halt? Well maybe not, but it darned sure would put a massive crimp in its ability to remain a viable and self supporting business, now wouldn't it?

Interestingly enough, a crime lab (Suffolk County New York) did the patina analysis of the James ossuary and compared it to that of the ossuaries discovered in this tomb, and found them to be identical. When compared with a random sampling of an assortment of other finds from the region, it matched no other. When James' ossuary is added as the missing one, it increases the odds to 30,000 to 1 in favor of this tomb being that of THE Jesus and his family. (Well over the number of burial sites for the period in the area). . .

The science they have utilized thus far seems sound, and the results are repeatable; both required in maintaining a high level of confidence within the results. I'm hoping that this documentary will drive an expedited effort toward investigating this whole thing and bring some level of clarity to the answers for the burning questions and issues it is driving. The fact that this stuff has laid within a warehouse for well over 2 decades just chaps my hide! This alone is reason enough to bring sensationalism to the documentary, if for no other reason than to motivate the scholarly types to get off their butts and give this the attention it so greatly deserves. If it does nothing more than that, it will have been worth the expense and effort, no matter what the end result is.

Now suppose for a moment it is proven to indeed be the familial tomb of Jesus and his family! This thing now resides under an apartment building patio area. Anyone suppose this is a proper location for such a historical family and figure? (And anyone want to bet on how long that building will stand if it is proven?)

If not for the concern and effort of two small boys, (and their mother), back in 1980 this whole thing would have been ruined and eliminated by the blasting and machines of construction workers, and be lost to humanity forever. . . The tomb of the priest that condemned Jesus brought much more attention, focus, and effort to bear. . . Pretty sad!

Christian religious leadership continues to spin this whole thing and will until the cows come home. They'll never accept undeniable proof that this is the family and tomb of the one they called Jesus, even if it were presented to them by the holy spirit of the man himself. Why? Because it would remove their personal wealth and power; eliminating their tool for controlling the masses and bending them to do their bidding. They have a great personal stake in this whole thing, in that it can provide proof that has the potential for severely wrecking a multi-billion dollar (untaxed) business enterprise they call the Christian church.

All of this is speculation, but the combined reaction of religious leadership certainly indicates that they are very fearful of the possibility of this speculation becoming proven scientific fact. No one among them ever considered the possibility that science might one day discover the remains of Jesus and his family, and how to deal with this if it did happen.

It wouldn't change the basic premise of Christ ascending to heaven, but it could document that this was a spiritual ascension rather than a physical one. It also represents the possibility of calling into question the most basic of tools for Christianity, the Holy Bible, and the accuracy of some of the parables it contains. "Virgin" Mary, Immaculate Conception, etc., all potentially revealed for the parables that they may very well be. Not to mention the entire process in which this book was assembled under, (You already know my opinion there), this whole thing could potentially invalidate the whole process and relegate the present version to nothing more than an assembly of tales from the period.  Again, very strong motivation to spin this into something it is not, or to fight tooth and nail to prevent it from transpiring.

If it turns out it isn't what it is said to be, then so be it. I am not saying it is, but I am merely stating that the possibility does exist based upon the evidence produced thus far, and I cannot fathom why anyone in their right mind would not want to find out for sure and squelch the opposition one way or another. Other than the motivation of the worship of money and power that is.

The individuals that have assembled the evidence provided thus far are scholars and respected individuals within their disciplines. Why not build upon their work and throw the very best in the world at this situation, and arrive at the truth? I am amazed at how quickly people will dismiss the work of these people, today, in such an off-handed manner, and yet accept words that have been produced, translated, and edited by humankind over the centuries as the "gospel". . .

Facts are sometimes investigated based upon a theory, which also at times can be proven or disproven by the results of the testing. It certainly isn't my desire to trash Christianity, or Christians in general; nor do I in any way believe this was the intent of the producers of the documentary in question. I think the whole intent here is "truth". If this whole scenario had the potential for proving the fact that Mary was indeed a virgin when she conceived, the Christian churches and leadership would be clamoring to get the required scientific examinations performed PDQ, and severely criticizing anyone or anything that stood in their way; very publicly too I might add.

In this instance, just because the projected theory doesn't nest nicely with the traditional teachings of the Christian religion, they instead take the opposite tact and attempt to discredit the theory without any consideration what so ever. What they are saying is the science, the scholars, the historians, and all of their combined education and experience amounts to nothing more than toilet-paper when compared to the words within a book that was assembled, edited, and written centuries ago by humankind. This is nothing short of self serving dark ages thinking at its best. 

No one is saying that this is THE Jesus and his family, but they are postulating that it appears that it could be, the statistics indicate that it could be, and with the application of current technology and science we can potentially confirm it to be or not, to a high degree of accuracy. 

And suppose that science is then able to conduct a worldwide search (genetically) for the living relatives of Jesus and they find them! Under this scenario then would one of them be the true anti-Christ who then proceeds to use his/her genetic connection to Jesus to build a huge following that turns away from Christianity?

And therein lies the difference between those within a leadership position in Christianity and those who are not. Leadership holds "the power" and control of the wealth that is generated by the churches and they wield it to suit their personal agenda. This "power and wealth" are the root-cause for any resistance toward proving, or disproving the whole theory. They dress it up with the scripture by molding a new meaning dependent upon the circumstances. Always have, always will. If this weren't the case, then why the resistance and refusal to even consider the possibilities the discovery could bring about? But this just exemplifies the closed-mindedness that avid Christians can obtain due to the overbearing perspectives of its leadership.

It has to start with the investigation of this tomb and its remains. IF the theory can be proven to a high level of certainty via science, this alone will change a number of minds; although for the long term, "dyed-in-the-wool" Christians, there may not be much hope of anything short of the second-coming in changing their minds.

Now the zealots amongst us will take my perspectives and theories and utilize them as a means to brand me a blasphemer, a heathen, or some other such invectives designed to belittle this post and this writer. Many of them cannot help it for they are victims of the centuries of conditioning at the hands of the true thieves amongst them; their religious leadership. They cannot accept anything that goes against their conditioning because they fear an eternity in a lake of fire and brimstone should they dare but question what they have been conditioned to believe. Others only do so because they themselves aspire to hold the reins of power within the organization, and they don't want the golden goose killed before they can obtain their own payday from the flocks they fleece. To them this discovery will always be nothing more than just a bunch of boxes and bones.

[flybananas]

Thank you for this.    Spurred quite the discussion between hubz and I yesterday.  Finished the movie today.

Wow, if this is NOT the tomb of Jesus of Nazareth then it's a very very strange coincidence of names and place.

However, I've always thought that Jesus had a PHYSICAL ascension. 

I need more INFO!!!

[Palehorse]

Thank you for this.    Spurred quite the discussion between hubz and I yesterday.  Finished the movie today.

Wow, if this is NOT the tomb of Jesus of Nazareth then it's a very very strange coincidence of names and place.

However, I've always thought that Jesus had a PHYSICAL ascension. 

I need more INFO!!!

Therein (bolded within the quote above) is the driver behind why Christianity automatically assumes a position against any further research into this. They off handedly dismiss the validated science and research by declaring it blasphemous, because should science prove that it was indeed the tomb of "the " Jesus then it would prove beyond any doubt that the ascension was not as it is written within the bible and open the door toward proving that the bible consists of parables (stories) meant to inspire, and is not literal in content.

Christianity has become a "for profit" business in America in present day. This multi-billion dollar industry wields power and influence over local, state, and federal governance of the people of this country, all while enjoying a tax free status as it rapes its sheep.

They are using "God" to accumulate personal wealth and power!

[flybananas]

I'm not declaring anything.  I'm not convinced that tomb did contain the family of Jesus Christ and I'm not convinced it did not.

What I am convinced of is that the "Church" has become completely perverted and (many) Christians have completely lost sight of Christianity.

This thread has inspired me to delve into the Apocryphal Books.  I've been completely overwhelmed by my readings and studies.  I like the website reluctant-messenger dot com.  Seems very helpful, but so much information!!!