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       They are just working the loopholes.



                    Who created the loopholes and why?





   





     

corporate greed. that's why.

Quote from: cerealkillertoo on February 06, 2010, 12:39:22 AM
       They are just working the loopholes.



                    Who created the loopholes and why?


It was your profession CK2 as you very well know.  Why aren't you giving us some free legal advise, instead of way out one liners?  ::O:


   





   

I'm just a puppet. 

I'm not buying that CK2.  You don't get where you are being a puppet. 

Quote from: cerealkillertoo on February 06, 2010, 12:39:22 AM
       They are just working the loopholes.

Undocumented Workers? That does make it sound
less criminal, huh? The "Fact" is, these folks are here illegally;
they broke the law when they enter the U.S.; they continue to
break the law by remaining in the U.S.; and our various law
enforcement agencies are enabling this by neglecting to enforce
the laws already on the books, and various employers are guilty
of (at the very least) organized crime, and fraud.

They are just working the loopholes? Sugar coat it anyway you
like, but they are committing crimes every day they remain in the U.S., i l l e g a l l y. Not only are they (the illegal immigrants)
breaking the law, but they are putting one hell of a strain on
our economy. Do you have any idea just how much of our tax
dollars is being spent on free food, education, and medical care
for the illegals? It is in the trillion dollar mark...annually.

You would have me blame the citizen that left their door open,
rather than the burglar that broke in and stole the citizen's
jewelry. Just don't yehaw friend. 



                    Who created the loopholes and why?





   





   

I have been spitting on sidewalks for years.  It is illegal to spit on sidewalks in the town in which i reside.  So if the rulebook has never been enforced on me for thirty some years.  And I am doing something that is illegal but not enforced.  How should i legally be dealt with.  IMMEDIATELY ARRESTED?  OR DO A MEDIA BLITZ SAYING IF ANYONE SPITS ON THE SIDEWALKS FROM THIS DAY FORWARD YOU CAN BE IMMEDIATELY ARRESTED/// 

Has anyone ever witnessed you spitting on the sidewalk?
More importantly, are you honestly comparing spitting on the
sidewalk with the various, and much more serious laws being
broken by "illegal" immigrants?

I'm a baseball player too~we all spit. So yes many a policeman have seen me spit. The mayor spits too

     For more then 30 years these workers have picked our apples, mowed our lawns, built our fences and played on the same baseball team as me.  They shower regularly, they brush their teeth and they provide clean safe housing for the children that were born in the USA. 
   Now when it is politically convenient we need to build a wall to keep them out because they are ruining the USA.   Use them and then toss them at will.  I would not think to tell any of you what you should do.  I am just expressing what i have experienced.
     LOOK UP THE SITES ON SEXUAL ABUSE~VIOLENT CRIME~ETC..LETS SAY FOR Norman, Ok. And view the names and ethnic groups of the registered offenders.  You will find 90% of the criminals are white males.   
   So who does our country need to be protected from the migrant worker who came here 30 years ago with nothing and works hard .  Or the white males who were born here and abuse our children.  Which is the higher priority?
  It's time to go toss a luge//

 

loopholes : Def. Terrynary new world edition .. Everybody knows when you go in circles there is a center; basic science - laws of the universe 'planets'.  A circle is similar to or the same as a loop which has a center, sometimes called a hole 'void', absence of anything, somewhere where there is nothing.
Depending on the size of the 'void' determines how much room there is to maneuver within it'.
Mexicians are generally small in stature ( Exception-women over 30 years old ) which generally gives them alot of room to meander around therefore loopholes. ::O: :rolleyes: ::D:

Quote from: cerealkillertoo on March 01, 2010, 11:27:10 PM
I'm a baseball player too~we all spit. So yes many a policeman have seen me spit. The mayor spits too

     For more then 30 years these workers have picked our apples, mowed our lawns, built our fences and played on the same baseball team as me.  They shower regularly, they brush their teeth and they provide clean safe housing for the children that were born in the USA. 
   Now when it is politically convenient we need to build a wall to keep them out because they are ruining the USA.   Use them and then toss them at will.  I would not think to tell any of you what you should do.  I am just expressing what i have experienced.
     LOOK UP THE SITES ON SEXUAL ABUSE~VIOLENT CRIME~ETC..LETS SAY FOR Norman, Ok. And view the names and ethnic groups of the registered offenders.  You will find 90% of the criminals are white males.   
   So who does our country need to be protected from the migrant worker who came here 30 years ago with nothing and works hard .  Or the white males who were born here and abuse our children.  Which is the higher priority?
  It's time to go toss a luge//

Let me start by saying that it is my sincere opinion that spitting,
anywhere but in a designated, or socially acceptable container is
a disgusting display of a lack of manners.

Now about all these apple picking, lawn mowing, fence building
ball players. Prior to their illegal entry into our country, who do
you suppose picked all those apples, mowed all those lawns,
built all those fences, and played all those ball games? Let me
make a suggestion as to the answer to my question...it was
citizens legally born and raised in our country. It was citizens
with social security card numbers assigned to them, and who
paid taxes when they performed these menial tasks. It was
citizens who did not have to press "el número cinco para seguir
en español" while conducting business on the phone. Do you
honestly believe the apple picking, lawn mowing, and fence
building would come to a screeching halt without these "illegal"
employees?

Now, a question for you. Do you understand the enormous
amount of funds being expended to support these illegals?
I'm not just talking about food subsidies, and health care,
but the cost of education and housing. There is also the loss
of tax revenue through illegal employment. The situation is
further acerbated by lawyers who now argue that these
illegals have the same rights that legal citizens have, and
that they should be afforded all these rights.

Your argument concerning the ethnicity of sexual abuse, and
violent offenders fails miserably when taking into consideration
the ethnic breakdown of any studied geographical area. The
percentage of white males will generally always be higher,
because they comprise a much larger percentage of the whole
number, averaging around 80% nationally. Of course, protecting
our children must always be a top priority, and they must not
only be protected from abuses, but from the erosion of the life
we have enjoyed because of our forefathers having promulgated,
and respected laws to protect us all.

who do
you suppose picked all those apples, mowed all those lawns,
built all those fences, and played all those ball games?
or "WE" talking about slavery again???

Quote from: Terry on March 02, 2010, 03:21:44 PM
who do
you suppose picked all those apples, mowed all those lawns,
built all those fences, and played all those ball games?
or "WE" talking about slavery again???

Why would you make that assumption? As an adolescent,
growing up in northeast Texas, I picked cotton, gathered corn,
hauled hay, built fences, and mowed lawns. I even played ball.
And, I certainly never felt like a slave. I did yard work right up
till the day I joined the Navy, and was never ashamed of what
I was doing. I was earning money legally, and helping my family.
Those kind of jobs are no longer available to young folks today,
because you have illegals by the hundreds doing them.

 ::D: I agree Confido, I've done more than my share of all that too.
If I had a $1.oo for every fence post I've set I'd be set for life.  Dad would buy properity ( farm ground-long forgotten) and I got to clear it, seed it, and fence it, put cattle on it and take care of them. I've picked cherries, pears, blackberries,beans,corn,tomatoes, by the bushel - never any cotton except out of my navel.
THAT WAS BACK WHEN PEOPLE WERE SELF-SUFFICIENT!

QuoteYou would have me blame the citizen that left their door open,
rather than the burglar that broke in and stole the citizen's
jewelry. Just don't yehaw friend. 

No you should blame the citizen who left their door open wide and then paid the illegal worker to clean their house and mow their lawn.

This is simple supply and demand. There is a huge demand for cheap, cheap labor in America and the illegals supply it.

If Americans wouldnt hire them they would go home.

Quote from: WhatMeWorry? on March 03, 2010, 08:50:49 AM
No you should blame the citizen who left their door open wide and then paid the illegal worker to clean their house and mow their lawn.

This is simple supply and demand. There is a huge demand for cheap, cheap labor in America and the illegals supply it.

If Americans wouldnt hire them they would go home.

Can't argue with the "don't hire and they'll go home"
idea, but I see it as more than a supply and demand issue.
The bottom line is, it's illegal, compounded by more illegal.
There is a huge demand for marijuana in this country as
well, and there is no short supply, but it is illegal to grow,
sell, buy, and use it, so if you participate in any way, your
butt is arrested, or ticketed, and you either go to jail, or
pay a fine. It plays heavily  into our economics. If the
illegals, and those who employ them were arrested, ticketed,
fined, and/or jailed, we would see a dramatic decrease in
illegal immigration. Once the profit is removed from an
operation/business, the operation/business ceases to exist.

Quote from: Confido on March 03, 2010, 11:56:38 AM
Can't argue with the "don't hire and they'll go home"
idea, but I see it as more than a supply and demand issue. If it was a desire to immigrate problem they would try and assimilate.
The bottom line is, it's illegal, compounded by more illegal.But which crime is worse? Illegal immigration or the exploitation of illegal immigrants? Hell, weigh it on the scales of morality.
There is a huge demand for marijuana in this country as
well, and there is no short supply, but it is illegal to grow,
sell, buy, and use it, so if you participate in any way, your
butt is arrested, or ticketed, and you either go to jail, or
pay a fine.People hide their pot use. Illegal workers exist out in the open. It plays heavily  into our economics.I would say our economy is predicated on the use of illegal labor. If the
illegals, and those who employ them were arrested, ticketed,
fined, and/or jailed, we would see a dramatic decrease in
illegal immigration.The thing to do is punish those who hire illegals. There arent enough jail cells to house all the worker bees. But pen up a few queens and all the workers go away. Once the profit is removed from an
operation/business, the operation/business ceases to exist.True. But the price of lettuce is going to go through the roof.

THEN GET OFF YOUR BUTT AND GROW YOUR OWN LETTUCE..........

Rent "A Day Without a Mexican" - it is wonderful.

We need is a sane worker policy, for sure.  We haven't been able to harvest the bounty of this country since we had this bounteous country, without their help.  We couldn't do it when they first put the trains through and we can't do it today.  We couldn't even do it back home in Connecticut, where things are small.  Everything ripens at the same time - tomatoes, corn, shade-grown tobacco (very intensive stuff.)  On the East Coast the workers are from Puerto Rico, but it is the same thing. 

Unfortunately, a sane policy requires sane people and we seem to be experiencing a shortage.

Quote from: mr.willy on September 24, 2010, 09:40:00 PM

But the price of lettuce is going to go through the roof.

THEN GET OFF YOUR BUTT AND GROW YOUR OWN LETTUCE..........

NO!

Don't sweat it! HOPELESS - 'i' grow enough lettece for both of 'us', the mexicans just get some of my hot peppers; & do they ever love'm'!

As with drugs, the illegal immigration issue in America is about the demand, in this case the demand for cheap labor.

Who wants/needs cheap labor?  American corporations.  Why do they want cheap labor?  Bigger profits.

It's as simple as that.  If they weren't being hired they wouldn't be here.

How can any one person or group be blamed? The illegals have no respect for the laws of this country or they wouldn't be coming into this country, the people that hire them have no respect for the laws of this country or they wouldn't hire them, the law enforcement people from cops to judges don't have the respect for the law or they'd enforce it and sentence accordingly. There's plenty of blame to go around.

jlmer, "U"v stated a Fact - " NOW " what "U" ona do bout IT?    Complain!!!!

So jlmer what extremes would you go to to make money to feed your family?  Would you skirt immigration law if someone was willing to pay you hundreds of times more than you could make at home?  Is it about disrespecting law or about providing for your family?

First of all, they shouldn't be in this country. Try going into theirs illegally. Secondly, the people that hire them should be find at least as much as they paid the illegal.
Our borders should be protected at any cost. It isn't just Mexican migrants coming into this country to work, it's their drug cartels setting up business, terrorists from other countries are crossing our borders thru Mexico because it's easy.
We need to either build a wall or have enough troops to strictly enforce illegal crossings or invade Mexico, make it a state, clean out the corruption and drugs and then let the Chicago democrats rule it...Who knows, maybe Fox would be made mayor of Tijuana.

Your argument doesn't make sense, why would someone want to enter Mexico illegally? Are you desperate for work? for money? is there no work in your area for a decent wage? is someone in Mexico offering you outrageous amounts of money for work?  Then your argument would make sense.

I ask again Jlmer, what extremes would you go to to support your loved ones? Would you take work illegally in a foreign country if it meant making a lot more money than at home? 

Let's not pretend that every illegal immigrant is a member of a drug cartel.  that is a bit like saying every Muslim is a terrorist.  If everyone is in the drug cartel, then who are the ones working illegally in construction and in the fields?  You know, the ones working their asses off to support their families?

Would you do that?

I don't see how someone can be faulted for trying to make their life better.

We need to stop Americans from doing drugs.  That will stop Mexican drug cartels. After all that is the bulk of their business.  And we either need to stop American companies from hiring illegals, and punish them for doing so, or we need to make work permits and the like easier for non Americans to obtain.  American companies want to make money, capitalism right?  How can they make more money? cheap labor.

Actually, I'm desperate for someone with common sense to join this debate. Do you happen to know the definition of "illegal"?
How do you propose to keep the drug cartel and terrorists out of the country and let the illegal migrant workers in?
It might be a good idea to put the citizens of this country to work picking peaches, etc. instead of laying around breeding and drawing free tax money off of the working people of this country.
Have you not heard the statements that are coming out of Mexico about how bad we are for not wanting their people in this country, drug dealers and all? Have you not read the restrictions Mexico has against illegals going into their country? Do you not care about the hypocrisy of it all?
How many are you willing to hire? Want them living next door to you with 10-20 in a 3 room house, driving your streets without insurance or a drivers license, sponging off of your hospitals and getting more benefits than you do? Even if they did write the rule book it would be for you and I, they'd be excluded.

I offer nothing but common sense jlmer, and you still haven't answered the question if you were living south of the border, desperate, hungry and out of work, what extremes would you go to to feed your family? would you cross the border to pick vegetables? would you cross the border the work construction?  Would you take the offers of greedy American's that want to pay you a fraction of what they would have to pay an American? What would you do to survive? to feed your kids?

Stop Americans from doing drugs and you eliminate the drug cartels.  American drug users are why they exist.

Americans working the fields? really?  I wish that were the case but in this day and age of laziness I don't see that happening.

Why do people come here to work? because they are desperate, they need to eat and feed their families. 

Why is there work available? because America is about capitalism, and cheap illegal labor costs less that American labor.  Greed.  profit.

So one guy is breaking the law to feed his family.  Another is breaking the law to get rich.

What would you do jlmer?

If I lived in Mexico and wanted to come to the US to work I'd apply for a Green Card. If I liked it here I'd then apply for citizenship and do it legally.
Because some Americans buy drugs is a reason to open our borders to all sorts of riff raff?
Lets legalize rape since we can't seem to stop it.
Just because a person is lazy is NO excuse to support him/her and let them continue on their lazy crusades.
You really aren't making a lot of sense in your argument. You're saying just because people do it let it go. Why do you think we have laws in this country?
Who is breaking the law to get rich?
Sounds like you're jealous of the people who are successful. That's the liberal belief, you work for it and give it to me.
You need to read about the founding fathers, why they came here, where they developed their laws from and wrote the Constitution and Bill of Rights. You have no clue from what you're saying.

Be honest, if your children were hungry you'd wait for the greencard process, when you knew you could simply walk across a river and get a good paying job?  Please.  If my children were hungry I would do whatever I could to feed them.

I didn't say anything about opening our borders to riff raff, I said STOP Americans from doing drugs and end Mexican drug cartels.  Americans doing drugs are why they exist.

American corporations who hire illegal immigrants are doing so to get rich.  Why else do you think they hire them? Why hire expensive American, sometimes unionized workers, when you can hire cheap, illegal immigrant workers.  That is breaking the law to get richer, make bigger profits, capitalism.

Where did I insinuate I was jealous.  Where did I insinuate that I agree with "you work for it, and give it to me"?  Do you honestly think  immigrant workers who put in 12 and 18 hour days for pennies on the dollar compared to someone else aren't working for it? 

You are going on and on about the law, when it pertains to someone crossing the border, yet now you defend law breakers in the name of capitalism? it's OK to break the law if you are a citizen and it  makes more money and be more successful?  But it is wrong to break the law if you are poor and just want to feed your family? Is that what you are saying?

You mentioned Biblical views in another post, what Biblical view says it's OK to get rich off of the suffering of others, but is wrong to work hard to feed your family?

Can you provide that scripture?

jlmer, I am very aware of the founding fathers and our nation, and our laws, and our people, if you've seen me post otherwise, please elaborate.

I think you are confusing a couple of different talking points in your arguments.  I think you are being dishonest about saying you would wait for a green card before feeding your hungry children.  I don't think you have an actual grasp on the situation concerning immigration in this country, and most definitely I think you are being hypocritical by saying it's OK to break the law if you are rich, but not if you are poor.

Don't try to put words in my mouth, you aren't qualified!
You're getting pretty silly in your would you's!ida
If my children were hungry I'd work at McDonalds, Wal Mart, mow lawn or whatever and if I had ideas of leaving the country I'd apply for a green card for Canada and do it legally.
So, what your saying is stop the drug cartels from coming in the country but don't patrol the borders or ask for ID.
Isn't that kind of silly?
When you say I'm supposed to give to the needy you're telling me to work and give the money to someone else. If you'd read statistics you'd see that most on welfare are capable of working but won't. It'd be nice if we could all start at the top but that's just not the way it is and if someone has hungry kids they should number one, stop having kids, number two there's plenty of jobs at Wal Mart or McDonalds. Too many can afford liquor and cigarettes but can't work or buy food? Bull!
What you think and what is fact are two different things.
I have Mexican and Chinese friends but they are all here legally and all are working at jobs, not picking peaches, etc. and are not complaining about getting into this country legally and are very proud to be here.

Not qualified? please elaborate.

My question was if you lived south of the border, what extremes would you go to to feed your children. I don't think the prospects south of the border are quite so bright as to simply go to Mcds and get a job.

Again, for the third or fourth time, what I am saying about drugs is this, STOP AMERICANS FROM DOING DRUGS.  THIS WILL END THE MEXICAN DRUG CARTELS BECAUSE THEY ARE IN BUSINESS TO SERVICE AMERICAN DRUG USERS.  They supply because American drug users demand.  I've said it 4 times, do you understand what I am saying?

I'm not sure I said anything about you giving to the needy.  Jesus did though.

Again, I don't think you quite understand the concept of being poor, being desperate, having hungry children, and the prospect of crossing the river to make good money.

And like with drugs, the reason people come here illegally for work is because of the demand for cheap labor thanks to AMERICAN CAPITALISM.  American companies hire cheap labor to make more profit.  It's what being in business is all about.  Where is your anger toward the American capitalists getting rich off of doing something illegal?

Should we let bank robbers go free, because they just wanted a better life for themselves? The average illegal alien uses $23,000 per year in social services, while paying less than $2,000 in taxes


They use our emergency rooms and then don't pay causing the cost of health care to rise for those of us that pay for it. Then they are committing crimes in this country, Having children to intentionally get welfare... If these people want a "better life" then they need to work to change their country, not invade ours.

Hello jlmer, DO YOU REMEMBER ME  ;D

Honestly Mr. Willy, when you wake up in the morning and you are poor and your children are hungry, I sincerely doubt that "changing your country" is going to feed them breakfast.

On the other hand, when there is work offered to you in America by Americans just across the border, and at much greater pay than would ever available at home, it's easy to see why they would cross the borders and work their butts off to feed their family.

A large part of our economy is designed around illegal labor.  It's part of the process and it's because of and controlled by American companies, in order to make more money.  That it also feeds families is a GOOD thing, not a BAD thing.

The labor provided by and the sales taxes and money put into the economy by immigrant workers far exceeds the figure you mentioned.

You say they are "invading" our country, but that simply is a lie.  They are invited here to work by the Americans who need their labor.  They are part of this country, part of the work force, part of the economy.  You can paint them with stereotypical talking point brushes all you like, but that doesn't make it true.

If you truly wanted to do something about it, you would start with the reason they come to America.  That is, there are jobs for them here to work their asses off.  That is why they come, that is what they do.

AdaLeft, More than a million children regularly go to bed hungry in the US, according to a government report that shows a startling increase in the number of families struggling to put food on the table and Nearly half reported losing weight because they did not have enough money to buy food.

The number of children living in U.S. households where there were shortages of food at times rose by nearly one-third to 17 million, AND most parents who did not get enough to eat ensured their offspring received sufficient food but that more than 1 million children still suffered outright hunger.

QuoteHonestly Mr. Willy, when you wake up in the morning and you are poor and your children are hungry I sincerely doubt that "changing your country" is going to feed them breakfast.

Maybe AdaLeft you should WAKEUP and check out how many U.S. children miss breakfast.

Yes, Mr Willy I appreciate your statistics, but it is completely irrelevant to the discussion we are having.

If you are a starving family south of the border, and your choices are decades of trying to change your country as you suggested, or simply crossing the border to get a well paying job offered to you freely and openly by the  Americans, I think any and all of us in that situation would take the job to feed our families.

Sadly, many Americans in poverty do not have the drive, willpower, or work ethic to get up off of their asses and work to feed their families, as immigrants certainly do.  Also sadly, many American companies that hire illegals cheaply, in order to make more money, do not offer the employment to those American workers.

QuoteYes, Mr Willy I appreciate your statistics, but it is completely irrelevant to the discussion we are having.

If you are a starving family south of the border then come into this country legally not illegally...something that  AdaLeft doesn't understand !!!!!!!  ;D

Again, as I've reiterated numerous times, when your family is hungry, when your children are starving, is it your intention Mr. Willy to wait for the legal process and/or fight for change?  Or is it your intention to get a job and feed them this morning?

It's sounds neat to say things like "change your country" or "follow the legal process", but in reality, when faced with poverty and hunger, those aren't nearly as viable options as taking the job offered to you by Americans.

Family values.  That is what this is about.  Feeding your hungry children.  Working hard to earn an honest living.  Those are the things this discussion is about.

They aren't wanting their children fed, they're wanting the system to take care of them, educate them then support them.
If they're here illegally and working they aren't paying taxes although they have all of the benefits of the US citizen.
Our prisons are overfilled with them and guess who's supporting them....you, me and the working class of people that are here legally! If we're going to chuck out laws, why pick and choose, lets just upchuck them all.
I have a Chinese friend here who opened a buffet. He brought some of his relatives with him and they work for him. All are here legally. He's saved his money and bought a house and all of the people that work for him live in this house. It's a nice tri-level and they keep it immaculate inside and out. Now, this man owns several houses which he rents out, has expanded his business to two other towns. He would make a good citizen and is what it's all about. He goes to China to visit his mother about once every two years. He did all of this through ambition and legal means. Why should he be moved to the back of the line because of illegals? Which would you rather lived next door to you?

So immigrants don't love their families jlmer? Is that what you are saying? Making a living isn't important to them? Feeding their children isn't important to them?  Is that what what you are saying?  Family values is a white American thing?  Really?

I wonder why illegal immigrants work 12-18 hour days?  I wonder why they work 6 and 7 days a week?  I wonder why they take such low wages?  I wonder who benefits from their cheap labor.

You keep speaking of "the law" they are breaking, but fail to mention the American companies who hire them for the sole purpose of MAKING LARGER PROFITS.  Isn't that a crime jlmer?  Aren't you concerned with that?

I appreciate you Chinese friends efforts.  Was he starving at home? Desperate?  He had enough capital to cross the ocean and get started.  Do you think that is the case for the average latino south of the border?

QuoteHe did all of this through ambition and legal means. Why should he be moved to the back of the line because of illegals? Which would you rather lived next door to you?

jlmer  ;D you will have to keep on explaining everything to  AdaLeft that  they're here illegally and working they aren't paying taxes although they have all of the benefits of the US citizen.

 If we're going to chuck out laws, why pick and choose, lets just upchuck them all.
Now "U"r getting the idea jlmer -- let's all quit paying taxes, (( of all kinds )), quit work & live on welfare, rob-steal & destroy all large businesses ** starting with Wal-Mart, and be 'the citizens' AdaLeft wannts "US" to be by breaking laws, and taking advantage of all "US" citizens!

Wonce 'a' nut, now totally senseless  :o  ???  ::)  :-\  ::D:

again, each of you keep speaking of the laws being broken by those immigrants taking jobs offered by Americans, for the purpose of feeding their families.

Meanwhile, where is your outrage over the American capitalists who want to make more money by hiring illegal workers?

Seems a tad hypocritical.  The reason they are here is to work, to do jobs given to them by Americans for American companies.

Quote from: mr.willy on October 25, 2010, 07:21:57 PM
jlmer  ;D you will have to keep on explaining everything to  AdaLeft that  they're here illegally and working they aren't paying taxes although they have all of the benefits of the US citizen.

All the benefits? really? are you sure about that Mr. Willy?
they are paying sales tax when they spend their money at Wal-Mart.  They are part of the economy  making products and providing services.

Yet again you fail to mention the responsibility of those HIRING illegals, and only setup the immigrant himself as the bad guy.  They wouldn't be here if there wasn't work, if they weren't being offered jobs by American companies.

illegal immigrants, IS driving up crime, stealing jobs and burdening hospitals and schools AdaLeft will not except.


Illegal immigrants are not "victims" who need us to rescue them. The CIA reports that the Mexican unemployment rate was recently only 4%, lower than 150 other countries and lower than the unemployment rate of the United States. Mexico is ranked #13 in GDP, higher than 172 countries. Mexico is home to the richest man in the world, has nine billionaires and has more millionaires than Germany.

Again, great "stats" Mr. Willy, but are you honestly saying that these figures apply to the average Mexican or Bolivian or someone else from south of our border?  Are you really saying that Mexico is a fantastic and wealthy place, and that all these successful Mexicans are giving up their lavish lifestyles to come to America to take advantage of Welfare?  Is that what you are saying Mr. Willy? If it is so great there, and things are so wonderful, why risk everything and spend your life savings getting here to America to the jobs offered to you by American companies.

BTW, yet again you've shied away from the topic of American companies offering these jobs to illegal immigrants in order to make bigger profits.  What should be done to these American Capitalist Business owners? 

I've not disagreed with you concerning negatives that have arisen from immigration, I've simply pointed out to you the realities of the situation.  Americans offer jobs to immigrants from Mexico and points south, and people risk everything to get here and take them and work their asses off for American companies, adding to our economy in the process.  Our economy depends on this labor now, because it's been allowed so long.

As with other posts, your stats, while interesting, don't really pertain to reality or to the situation of average hard working people trying to make a living, a better life for their families.

Quoteyou've shied away from the topic of American companies offering these jobs to illegal immigrants

AdaLeft if you would get off your butt you would find out that over the past year, Immigration and Customs Enforcement has conducted audits of employee files at more than 2,900 companies. The agency has levied a record $3 million in civil fines so far this year on businesses that hired unauthorized immigrants, according to official figures.

AdaLeft "U"ll see the day "U"d love to have one of those illegal immigrant jobs, & it's not far off!
"U"ll be the one on welfare and begging for "OUR" gov to do something about
illegal immigrants - cause 'it's' starving "U".
YES! "U"ll see it soon!!!!

Quote from: mr.willy on October 26, 2010, 06:31:25 PM

AdaLeft if you would get off your butt you would find out that over the past year, Immigration and Customs Enforcement has conducted audits of employee files at more than 2,900 companies. The agency has levied a record $3 million in civil fines so far this year on businesses that hired unauthorized immigrants, according to official figures.

get off my butt? you've not commented on the fact that American companies hire illegal immigrants in order to make more money, which is why illegal immigrants flock to our nation, and somehow your response is to tell me to get off my butt?

Again, thank you for the provided stats.  I wonder though, Mr Willy, in all politeness, do you have any real world experience outside of using Google for statistical information?

Quote from: Terry on October 26, 2010, 09:14:07 PM
AdaLeft "U"ll see the day "U"d love to have one of those illegal immigrant jobs, & it's not far off!
"U"ll be the one on welfare and begging for "OUR" gov to do something about
illegal immigrants - cause 'it's' starving "U".
YES! "U"ll see it soon!!!!

This is a most confusing post Terri.  Do you have some information you'd like to share about this forthcoming event you know about?

I would find it hard to believe that the American companies that hire illegal immigrants in order to make greater profits would do so in my line of work, but I guess one never knows.

What you strange post has to do with the facts of the conversation escapes me, but thank you for your..input?

Quotethank you for the provided stats.

AdaLeft where are your stats and  you have a hard time of reading my post.

QuoteThe agency has levied a record $3 million in civil fines so far this year on businesses that hired unauthorized immigrants, according to official figures.

AdaLeft FYI THESE illegal aliens are not just picking lettuce and digging ditches any more. It HASN'T been that long ago that being a dry-waller, brick-layer, house framer, painter, roofer, carpet layer, plumber, or electrician was a good paying & a middle class trade. Now in many places these jobs are becoming the work for illegal aliens at far less than the free market rate. While illegal alien workers are a portion of many of those job categories their willingness to work at dramatically lower rates artificially drags down the compensation for all workers.

And why are these jobs going to illegal aliens Mr. Willy?

Because American companies are hiring them.  Why are they hiring them?  Cause they can pay less for the same work and make more money.

I don't have any problem reading your posts Mr. Willy, I asked you to comment on the businesses hiring illegals.

You say there is a crackdown in one post, then you say they are taking over all jobs in the next post.

How do you FEEL about the fact that American capitalists, in order to make more money and be more successful, hire illegal workers instead of Americans?

QuoteHow do you FEEL about the fact that American capitalists, in order to make more money and be more successful, hire illegal workers instead of Americans?

AdaLeft the fact is if the gov was doing their job there would be no illegeal immagrants here being a dry-waller, brick-layer, house framer, painter, roofer, carpet layer, plumber, or electrician.

AdaLeft you know the first duty of the federal government is to defend the people. National security should be its number one responsibility. The people are tired of the federal government's failure to secure our borders and enforce our laws on illegal  immigration !!!!!!!!!

So what you are saying is, it's the federal government's fault, not the fault of the American's hiring the illegal workers?

Those doing the hiring are not accountable for their actions you are saying, they couldn't help hiring illegal workers and breaking the law, because the damn government let them across the border.

Is that what you are saying?

It's OK to hire illegal immigrants in order to make larger profits, as long as the damn federal government doesn't stop them from coming in.

That is what you are saying?  Where is personal responsibility?

And let's face it Mr. Willy, this issue of illegal immigration and illegal hiring by American companies for cheaper wages/larger profits has been going on for over half a century.  There is no new threat on our border.

by the way, I am curious to how all of the conservative disciples of Ronald Reagan feel about his view on illegal immigration?  After all he granted amnesty to millions of illegal immigrants during his presidency. 

QuoteSo what you are saying is, it's the federal government's fault, not the fault of the American's hiring the illegal workers?

Quoteand enforce our laws on illegal  immigration !!!!!!!!

That must be to hard for  AdaLeft to understand

QuoteRonald Reagan feel about his view on illegal immigration

Ronald Reagan called himself a conservative, but on immigration, he was not and  Ronald Reagan, lined up with the liberals, and his historical reputation does reflect this.

So then you ARE saying that those American citizens in American companies breaking the law bear no responsibility because the federal government hasn't enforced the borders properly?

Wouldn't that also mean that those crossing the border bear no responsibility because the federal government hasn't enforced the borders properly?

No offense Mr. Willy, but your arguments on this issue tend to contradict one another.

QuoteNo offense Mr. Willy, but your arguments on this issue tend to contradict one another.

::D

No offense AdaLeft you have no  common sense and you you cannot defend the illegal  immigration and my arguments on this issue does not tend to contradict one another. ::D: ::D: ::D: ::D: ::D: ::D:

No common sense? please elaborate. I used nothing but common sense and the facts to illustrate my view in this discussion.

And yes, your arguments tend to contradict each other. on one had you say that the immigrants don't come here to work, but to get welfare, and then you say Mexico is a rich and fanciful country full of billionaires.  Or on another hand you say they are taking all the jobs even high paying ones, after just saying their goal was just to get welfare.

It's OK, it's just a message board, not being graded.

I am not and have not once attempted to defend illegal immigration, I've simply pointed out the realities behind it.

QuoteI've simply pointed out the realities behind it.

::D: ::D: ::D: ::D: ::D:


No offense AdaLeft but you have not proven anything that I have posted to be wrong !!!!!!!

QuoteI am not and have not once attempted to defend illegal immigration

::D: ::D: ::D: ::D: ::D:

Even Terry's got your number on his post.

QuoteAdaLeft "U"ll see the day "U"d love to have one of those illegal immigrant jobs, & it's not far off!
"U"ll be the one on welfare and begging for "OUR" gov to do something about
illegal immigrants - cause 'it's' starving "U".
YES! "U"ll see it soon!!!!

AdaLeft YOU ARE JUST A PENCIL PUSHER LIBERAL WITH NO COMMON SENSE OR A ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT!!  ::D: ::D: ::D: ::D: ::D: ::D:

Quote from: mr.willy on October 27, 2010, 05:55:04 PM
::D: ::D: ::D: ::D: ::D:


No offense AdaLeft but you have not proven anything that I have posted to be wrong !!!!!!!
::D: ::D: ::D: ::D: ::D:

Even Terry's got your number on his post.

AdaLeft YOU ARE JUST A PENCIL PUSHER LIBERAL WITH NO COMMON SENSE OR A ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT!!  ::D: ::D: ::D: ::D: ::D: ::D:

Pencil pusher liberal? not sure what that means.

I see that I've exhausted your ability to rationally discuss the issue.  Apologies.

QuoteI see that I've exhausted your ability to rationally discuss the issue.

::D: ::D: ::D: ::D:


AdaLeft is a radical, trying to push the  policies of Obama, Pelosi, and Reid on the illegal immigration issues and as anyone can see that AdaLeft cannot disprove of  the facts that has been posted and no you will never exhaust me because YOU have no ability or rationally or facts to prove your issue on the illegal immigrates. ::D: ::D: ::D: ::D: ::D: ::D: ::D: ::D:

LOL, wow, they've really got you hooked Mr Willy.  Please elaborate on ANY policy from ANY politician you feel I've attempted to "push" as you say.

I've simply pointed out the facts of the situation, that immigrants come to America to work because American companies offer them jobs.  Can you deny that that is true?

I believe you meant "rationality" in your last sentence, and I've not tried to rationalize anything, nor have I defended illegal immigration.  I've simply discussed, politely, the facts ofthe situation.  It is in fact American corporations have rationalized illegal immigration by hiring them in order to make larger profits.

FYI AdaLeft THERE are several rings of counterfeiters who provide fake IDs for illegals plus you have sanctuary cities for illegals make it easy for them to live in our country.

Now AdaLeft here is more for you to read. ;D

Federal Immigration and Nationality Act
Section 8 USC 1324(a)(1)(A)(iv)(b)(iii)
"Any person who . . . encourages or induces an alien to . . . reside . . . knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that such . . . residence is . . . in violation of law, shall be punished as provided . . . for each alien in respect to whom such a violation occurs . . . fined under title 18 . . . imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both."

Section 274 felonies under the federal Immigration and Nationality Act, INA 274A(a)(1)(A):

A person (including a group of persons, business, organization, or local government) commits a federal felony when she or he:

* assists an alien s/he should reasonably know is illegally in the U.S. or who lacks employment authorization, by transporting, sheltering, or assisting him or her to obtain employment, or

* encourages that alien to remain in the U.S. by referring him or her to an employer or by acting as employer or agent for an employer in any way, or

* knowingly assists illegal aliens due to personal convictions.

Penalties upon conviction include criminal fines, imprisonment, and forfeiture of vehicles and real property used to commit the crime. Anyone employing or contracting with an illegal alien without verifying his or her work authorization status is guilty of a misdemeanor. Aliens and employers violating immigration laws are subject to arrest, detention, and seizure of their vehicles or property. In addition, individuals or entities who engage in racketeering enterprises that commit (or conspire to commit) immigration-related felonies are subject to private civil suits for treble damages and injunctive relief.

Recruitment and Employment of Illegal Aliens

It is unlawful to hire an alien, to recruit an alien, or to refer an alien for a fee, knowing the alien is unauthorized to work in the United States. It is equally unlawful to continue to employ an alien knowing that the alien is unauthorized to work. Employers may give preference in recruitment and hiring to a U.S. citizen over an alien with work authorization only where the U.S. citizen is equally or better qualified. It is unlawful to hire an individual for employment in the United States without complying with employment eligibility verification requirements. Requirements include examination of identity documents and completion of Form I-9 for every employee hired. Employers must retain all I-9s, and, with three days' advance notice, the forms must be made available for inspection. Employment includes any service or labor performed for any type of remuneration within the United States, with the exception of sporadic domestic service by an individual in a private home. Day laborers or other casual workers engaged in any compensated activity (with the above exception) are employees for purposes of immigration law. An employer includes an agent or anyone acting directly or indirectly in the interest of the employer. For purposes of verfication of authorization to work, employer also means an independent contractor, or a contractor other than the person using the alien labor. The use of temporary or short-term contracts cannot be used to circumvent the employment authorization verification requirements. If employment is to be for less than the usual three days allowed for completing the I-9 Form requirement, the form must be completed immediately at the time of hire.

An employer has constructive knowledge that an employee is an illegal unauthorized worker if a reasonable person would infer it from the facts. Constructive knowledge constituting a violation of federal law has been found where (1) the I-9 employment eligibility form has not been properly completed, including supporting documentation, (2) the employer has learned from other individuals, media reports, or any source of information available to the employer that the alien is unauthorized to work, or (3) the employer acts with reckless disregard for the legal consequences of permitting a third party to provide or introduce an illegal alien into the employer's work force. Knowledge cannot be inferred solely on the basis of an individual's accent or foreign appearance.

Actual specific knowledge is not required. For example, a newspaper article stating that ballrooms depend on an illegal alien work force of dance hostesses was held by the courts to be a reasonable ground for suspicion that unlawful conduct had occurred.

IT IS ILLEGAL FOR NONPROFIT OR RELIGIOUS ORGANIZATIONS to knowingly assist an employer to violate employment sanctions, REGARDLESS OF CLAIMS THAT THEIR CONVICTIONS REQUIRE THEM TO ASSIST ALIENS. Harboring or aiding illegal aliens is not protected by the First Amendment. It is a felony to establish a commercial enterprise for the purpose of evading any provision of federal immigration law. Violators may be fined or imprisoned for up to five years.

Encouraging and Harboring Illegal Aliens

It is a violation of law for any person to conceal, harbor, or shield from detection in any place, including any building or means of transportation, any alien who is in the United States in violation of law. HARBORING MEANS ANY CONDUCT THAT TENDS TO SUBSTANTIALLY FACILITATE AN ALIEN TO REMAIN IN THE U.S. ILLEGALLY. The sheltering need not be clandestine, and harboring covers aliens arrested outdoors, as well as in a building. This provision includes harboring an alien who entered the U.S. legally but has since lost his legal status.

An employer can be convicted of the felony of harboring illegal aliens who are his employees if he takes actions in reckless disregard of their illegal status, such as ordering them to obtain false documents, altering records, obstructing INS inspections, or taking other actions that facilitate the alien's illegal employment. Any person who within any 12-month period hires ten or more individuals with actual knowledge that they are illegal aliens or unauthorized workers is guilty of felony harboring. It is also a felony to encourage or induce an alien to come to or reside in the U.S. knowing or recklessly disregarding the fact that the alien's entry or residence is in violation of the law. This crime applies to any person, rather than just employers of illegal aliens. Courts have ruled that "encouraging" includes counseling illegal aliens to continue working in the U.S. or assisting them to complete applications with false statements or obvious errors. The fact that the alien is a refugee fleeing persecution is not a defense to this felony, since U.S. law and the UN Protocol on Refugees both require that a refugee must report to immigration authorities without delay upon entry to the U.S.

The penalty for felony harboring is a fine and imprisonment for up to five years. The penalty for felony alien smuggling is a fine and up to ten years' imprisonment. Where the crime causes serious bodily injury or places the life of any person in jeopardy, the penalty is a fine and up to twenty years' imprisonment. If the criminal smuggling or harboring results in the death of any person, the penalty can include life imprisonment. Convictions for aiding, abetting, or conspiracy to commit alien smuggling or harboring, carry the same penalties. Courts can impose consecutive prison sentences for each alien smuggled or harbored. A court may order a convicted smuggler to pay restitution if the alien smuggled qualifies as a victim under the Victim and Witness Protection Act. Conspiracy to commit crimes of sheltering, harboring, or employing illegal aliens is a separate federal offense punishable by a fine of up to $10,000 or five years' imprisonment.

Enforcement

A person or entity having knowledge of a violation or potential violation of employer sanctions provisions may submit a signed written complaint to the INS office with jurisdiction over the business or residence of the potential violator, whether an employer, employee, or agent. The complaint must include the names and addresses of both the complainant and the violator, and detailed factual allegations, including date, time, and place of the potential violation, and the specific conduct alleged to be a violation of employer sanctions. By regulation, the INS will only investigate third-party complaints that have a reasonable probability of validity. Designated INS officers and employees, and all other officers whose duty it is to enforce criminal laws, may make an arrest for violation of smuggling or harboring illegal aliens.

State and local law enforcement officials have the general power to investigate and arrest violators of federal immigration statutes without prior INS knowledge or approval, as long as they are authorized to do so by state law. There is no extant federal limitation on this authority. The 1996 immigration control legislation passed by Congress was intended to encourage states and local agencies to participate in the process of enforcing federal immigration laws. Immigration officers and local law enforcement officers may detain an individual for a brief warrantless interrogation where circumstances create a reasonable suspicion that the individual is illegally present in the U.S. Specific facts constituting a reasonable suspicion include evasive, nervous, or erratic behavior; dress or speech indicating foreign citizenship; and presence in an area known to contain a concentration of illegal aliens. Hispanic appearance alone is not sufficient. Immigration officers and police must have a valid warrant or valid employer's consent to enter workplaces or residences. Any vehicle used to transport or harbor illegal aliens, or used as a substantial part of an activity that encourages illegal aliens to come to or reside in the U.S. may be seized by an immigration officer and is subject to forfeiture. The forfeiture power covers any conveyances used within the U.S.

RICO -- Citizen Recourse

Private persons and entities may initiate civil suits to obtain injunctions and treble damages against enterprises that conspire to or actually violate federal alien smuggling, harboring, or document fraud statutes, under the Racketeer-Influenced and Corrupt Organizations (RICO). The pattern of racketeering activity is defined as commission of two or more of the listed crimes. A RICO enterprise can be any individual legal entity, or a group of individuals who are not a legal entity but are associated in fact, AND CAN INCLUDE NONPROFIT ASSOCIATIONS.

Tax Crimes

Employers who aid or abet the preparation of false tax returns by failing to pay income or Social Security taxes for illegal alien employees, or who knowingly make payments using false names or Social Security numbers, are subject to IRS criminal and civil sanctions. U.S. nationals who have suffered intentional discrimination because of citizenship or national origin by an employer with more than three employees may file a complaint within 180 days of the discriminatory act with the Special Counsel for Immigration-Related Unfair Employment Practices, U.S. Department of Justice. In additon to the federal statutes summarized, state laws and local ordinances controlling fair labor practices, workers compensation, zoning, safe housing and rental property, nuisance, licensing, street vending, and solicitations by contractors may also apply to activities that involve illegal aliens.

Um, yeah, thanks for you input into the discussion MR. Willy.

[quoteUm, yeah, thanks for you input into the discussion MR. Willy.][/quote]

Did you understand AdaLeft ?  ;D  ;D  ;D

What's there to discuss; they're illegal immigrants  (( Illegal Aliens )) {maybe not as bad as ones from another planet};  what's the word ' illegal ' mean to "U" guys?  If "OUR" gov isn't going to inforce those rules then how many more laws & regulations can people get by with? 
    Maybe "WE" should 'all start breaking laws' & see if the *PRES>* gets off his a$$ and does anything about it!
"WE" all think the law is the law cause "WE" grew up being told that & and our parents instilled it, but times have changed & so have people, so maybe it's alright to break laws now - "U" see alot of it being done.
    "i" can run for & get elected president & 'i' don't even have to be an American citizen, & if 'i' win I'll change this country.  "I'll make it what I want it to be: !!
    So anyhow :  "if it's against the law  DO something about it!!

Terri, do you think American companies hiring illegal immigrants is a recent event?  times haven't changed, the subject is just convenient fodder for an election year.  These same companies and many others having been breaking the law by hiring illegal immigrants for decades, which is why their labor, and it's cheap value, and the large profits it gives American companies has become a necessary part of our economy.

to pretend that this is a new and recent problem caused by our laws slipping away is ridiculous.  The status of immigration and of American companies illegally hiring workers is no different this morning than it's been under the last 10 presidents.

QuoteTerriY, do you think American companies hiring illegal immigrants is a recent event? 

What 'i' said was "STOP"! illegal immigration - before it stops " US"

It's not enough (we're) sending all our jobs overseas, they're slipping thur the cracks and also taking jobs here.  >:(

AdaLeft If I remember right you have said that the Illeageal are doing jobs americans won't do this  is ridiculous, the reason the wages is down  is because the illegals drive them down.

Quote from: Terry on October 29, 2010, 09:36:52 AM

QuoteTerriY, do you think American companies hiring illegal immigrants is a recent event? 

What 'i' said was "STOP"! illegal immigration - before it stops " US"

we can't/won't stop it till American companies stop offering jobs.

Who sends the jobs overseas?  And why do they do that?  The same reason they hire illegal immigrants.

LARGER PROFITS.

Why pay an American $15 an hour when you can pay an Indian or Chinese or Mexican or Bolivian 15 cents an hour?


It's called capitalism.

And Willie, please, show me the line of Americans be deprived of work because of illegal aliens.

AdaLeft under the Mexican law, illegal immigration is a felony,and punishable by up to two years in prison. Immigrants who are deported and attempt to re-enter can also be imprisoned for 10 years, plus visa violators can be sentenced to six-year terms. Mexicans who help illegal immigrants are considered criminals.

The law also says Mexico can deport foreigners who are deemed detrimental to economic or national interests.

OK? what does that have to do with what is going on in America?

Immigrants south of the border come here to work, because American employers offer them work.

The reason they offer them work is the same reason they move jobs overseas, cheap labor = larger profits.

Where is your anger toward capitalism?

Quotewhat does that have to do with what is going on in America?

Employment Situation Summary

Transmission of material in this release is embargoed            USDL-10-1393
until 8:30 a.m. (EDT) Friday, October 8, 2010

Technical information:
Household data:       (202) 691-6378  *  cpsinfo@bls.gov  *  www.bls.gov/cps
Establishment data:   (202) 691-6555  *  cesinfo@bls.gov  *  www.bls.gov/ces

Media contact:         (202) 691-5902  *  PressOffice@bls.gov


                        THE EMPLOYMENT SITUATION -- SEPTEMBER 2010


Nonfarm payroll employment edged down (-95,000) in September, and the unem-
ployment rate was unchanged at 9.6 percent, the U.S. Bureau of Labor Sta-
tistics reported today. Government employment declined (-159,000), reflec-
ting both a drop in the number of temporary jobs for Census 2010 and job
losses in local government. Private-sector payroll employment continued
to trend up modestly (+64,000).

Household Survey Data

The number of unemployed persons, at 14.8 million, was essentially un-
changed in September, and the unemployment rate held at 9.6 percent. (See
table A-1.)

Among the major worker groups, the unemployment rate for adult men (9.8
percent), adult women (8.0 percent), teenagers (26.0 percent), whites
(8.7 percent), blacks (16.1 percent), and Hispanics (12.4 percent) showed
little or no change in September. The jobless rate for Asians was 6.4
percent, not seasonally adjusted. (See tables A-1, A-2, and A-3.)

The number of long-term unemployed (those jobless for 27 weeks and over),
at 6.1 million, was little changed over the month but was down by 640,000
since a series high of 6.8 million in May. In September, 41.7 percent
of unemployed persons had been jobless for 27 weeks or more. (See table
A-12.)

In September, both the civilian labor force participation rate, at 64.7
percent, and the employment-population ratio, at 58.5 percent, were un-
changed. (See table A-1.)

The number of persons employed part time for economic reasons (sometimes
referred to as involuntary part-time workers) rose by 612,000 over the
month to 9.5 million. Over the past 2 months, the number of such workers
has increased by 943,000. These individuals were working part time be-
cause their hours had been cut back or because they were unable to find
a full-time job. (See table A-8.)

About 2.5 million persons were marginally attached to the labor force
in September, up from 2.2 million a year earlier. (The data are not sea-
sonally adjusted.) These individuals were not in the labor force, wanted
and were available for work, and had looked for a job sometime in the
prior 12 months. They were not counted as unemployed because they had
not searched for work in the 4 weeks preceding the survey. (See table
A-16.)

Among the marginally attached, there were 1.2 million discouraged work-
ers in September, an increase of 503,000 from a year earlier. (The data
are not seasonally adjusted.) Discouraged workers are persons not cur-
rently looking for work because they believe no jobs are available for
them. The remaining 1.3 million persons marginally attached to the labor
force had not searched for work in the 4 weeks preceding the survey
for reasons such as school attendance or family responsibilities.

Quoteshow me the line of Americans be deprived of work

There are currently 15 to 20 million illegal aliens in this country by many estimates, but the real numbers could be much higher and the numbers increase every day because our borders are not secure

AdaLeft open up your eyes if its possible !!!!!!!!

I ask again Mr. Willy, where is your anger toward capitalism?
Cheaper wages = larger profits, that is why American companies hire illegal aliens
substandard wages in American are greater than little or no wages elsewhere, that is why illegal aliens take the jobs.

My eyes are wide open, and they notice repeatedly that you are missing the point of the situation.

QuoteI ask again Mr. Willy, where is your anger toward capitalism?

AdaLeft I have been answering your questions all along, now you tell me what type of Gov. do you want!!!!!

Capitalism isn't a type of government.

AdaLeft, What Kind of Government Do You Want !!!!

As a life long American citizen, veteran and patriot, I can't think of a better one than America's Constitutional Republic.

Why do you ask?

QuoteI can't think of a better one than America's Constitutional Republic

AdaLeft do you think the U,S. is a Constitutional Republic ?????

 

What is a constitutional republic?


A constitutional republic is a state where the head of state and other officials are elected as representatives of the people, and must govern according to existing constitutional law that limits the government's power over citizens. In a constitutional republic, executive, legislative, and judicial powers are separated into distinct branches and the will of the majority of the population is tempered by protections for individual rights so that no individual or group has absolute power. The fact that a constitution exists that limits the government's power makes the state constitutional. That the head(s) of state and other officials are chosen by election, rather than inheriting their positions, and that their decisions are subject to judicial review makes a state republican.
Most notable example of a constitutional republic: The United States of America.

@least it use to "B"?  ::D:

Then what is a Democracy ?????

 :rolleyes:



America is a Constitutional Republic . . . NOT a Democracy
 
By Daneen G. Peterson, Ph.D.
Speech Given September 9, 2006 in Salt Lake City, Utah
 
How often have you heard people refer to America as a Democracy?  When was the last time that you heard America referred to as a Republic?   There is a very good reason that our Pledge of Allegiance refers to our country as a Republic and there is a very good reason that our Declaration of Independence and our constitution do not even mentioned the word "democracy".
 
Many people are under the false impression our form of government is a democracy, or representative democracy. This is of course completely untrue. The Founders were extremely knowledgeable about the issue of democracy and feared a democracy as much as a monarchy.  They understood that the only entity that can take away the people's freedom is their own government, either by being too weak to protect them from external threats or by becoming too powerful and taking over every aspect of life.
They knew very well the meaning of the word "democracy", and the history of democracies; and they were deliberately doing everything in their power to prevent having a democracy.

In a Republic, the sovereignty resides with the people themselves.  In a Republic, one may act on his own or through his representatives when he chooses to solve a problem. The people have no obligation to the government; instead, the government is a servant of the people, and obliged to its owner, We the People.  Many politicians have lost sight of that fact.

A Constitutional Republic has some similarities to democracy in that it uses democratic processes to elect representatives and pass new laws, etc.  The critical difference lies in the fact that a Constitutional Republic has a Constitution that limits the powers of the government.  It also spells out how the government is structured, creating checks on its power and balancing power between the different branches.

The goal of a Constitutional Republic was to avoid the dangerous extreme of either tyranny or mobocracy but what exists in America today is a far cry from the Constitutional Republic our forefathers brought forth.

what exists in America today is a far cry from the Constitutional Republic our forefathers brought forth.

Then if our forefathers intent the U.S to be a  Constitutional Republic how have we became a constitutional republic ???????

(http://media5.picsearch.com/is?8hQcek7uptaP_PP8Y4zA1fJH2n-08k3WXAk_Xhz4QDk)

hum, ...humph, ...?what?

In a Republic, the sovereignty resides with the people themselves.  In a Republic, one may act on his own or through his representatives when he chooses to solve a problem. The people have no obligation to the government; instead, the government is a servant of the people

QuoteThen if our forefathers intent the U.S to be a  Constitutional Republic how have we became a constitutional republic

::D: ::D: ::D:


I screwed up on my question and this is what I intended to say,  Then if our forefathers intended the U.S to be a  Constitutional Republic are we also a Democracy ?

OOOOOOO WHAT I THIS.

QuoteA letter sent to "Tennessee Senator Bill First"
from a retired border patrol agent
Dear Senator Frist:

There is a huge amount of propaganda and myths circulating about illegal aliens, particularly illegal Mexican, Salvadorian, Guatemalan and Honduran aliens.
#1. Illegal aliens generally do NOT want US citizenship. Americans are very vain thinking that everybody in the world wants to be a US citizen. Mexicans, and other nationalities want to remain citizens of their home countries while obtaining the benefits offered by the United States such as employment, medical care, instate tuition, government subsidized housing and free education for their offspring. Their main attraction is employment and their loyalty usually remain sat home. They want benefits earned and subsidized by middle class Americans.  What illegal aliens want are benefits of American residence without paying the price.
#2. There are no jobs that Americans won't do. Illegal aliens are doing jobs that Americans can't take and still support their families. Illegal aliens take
#3. Every person who illegally entered this nation left a home. They are NOT
#4. Illegal aliens are NOT critical to the economy. Illegal aliens constitute less than 5% of the workforce. However, they reduce wages and benefits for lawful US residents.
#5. This is NOT an immigrant nation. There are 280 million native born Americans. While it is true that this nation was settled and founded by immigrants (legal immigrants), it is also true that there is not a nation on this planet that was not settled by immigrants at one time or another.
#6. The United States is welcoming to legal immigrants. Illegal aliens are not immigrants by definition. The US accepts more lawful immigrants every year than the rest of the world combined.
#7. There is no such thing as the "Hispanic vote." Hispanics are white, brown, black and every shade in between. Hispanics are Republicans, Democrats, Anarchists, Communists, Marxists and Independents. The so-called "Hispanic vote" is a myth. Pandering to illegal aliens to get the Hispanic vote is a dead end.
#8. Mexico is NOT a friend of the United States. Since 1848 Mexicans have resented the United States. During World War I Mexico allowed German Spies to operate freely in Mexico to spy on the US. during World War II Mexico allowed the Axis powers to spy on the US from Mexico. During the Cold War Mexico allowed spies hostile to the US to operate freely. The attack on the Twin Towers in 2001 was cheered and applauded all across Mexico. Today Mexican school children are taught that the US stole California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas. If you don't believe it, check out some Mexican textbooks written for their school children.
#9. Although some illegal aliens enter this country for a better life, there are 6 billion people on this planet. At least 1 billion of those live on less than one dollar a day. If wanting a better life is a valid excuse to break the law and sneak into America, then let's allow those one billion to come to America and we'll turn the USA into a Third World nation overnight. Besides, there are 280 million native-born Americans who want a better life. I'll bet Bill Gates and Donald Trump want a better life. When will the USA lifeboat be full? Since when is wanting a better life a good reason to trash another nation?
#10. There is a labor shortage in this country. This is a lie. There are hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of American housewives, senior citizens, students, unemployed and underemployed who would gladly take jobs at a decent wage.
#11. It is racist to want secure borders. What is racist about wanting secure borders and a secure America? What is racist about not wanting people to sneak into America and steal benefits we have set aside for legal aliens, senior citizens, children and other legal residents? What is it about race that entitles people to violate our laws, steal identities, and take the American Dream without paying the price?
It will come in November of this year. We will not allow America to be stolen by third world agitators and thieves.
David J. Stoddard
US Border Patrol (RET) 2001-2002
Hereford, Arizona

are we also a Democracy
not in the least sence of the word, "WE" have 'somehow' turned into a political state - were the people have "no" voice in the workings of the nation - it'll change & maybe soon - 'i' feel a revolution coming, where the people take back the country.  But in 'the meantime' it's going to get serious.  Because of the economy, lack of jobs & the way the gov has handled the last 6 years, until the populas wakes up to what's really going on in this country, 'which will take time', we're on a downhill road o disaster!
    Which happens 1st is questionable, unless 'we' see the voters display their wishes Tuesday.
*(( GO VOTe! ))*

Quote(( GO VOTe! ))*

HAVE ALREADY VOTED  ::D:

"U" missed all the hub-la of election day???
'i'll bet it was straight rebublican  :confused:  :-\  ;D

Quote'i'll bet it was straight rebublican

Never have voted a straight ticket, voted for a few Demo's in the county. ::D:

Quote from: Terry on October 30, 2010, 06:59:46 PM
are we also a Democracy
not in the least sence of the word, "WE" have 'somehow' turned into a political state - were the people have "no" voice in the workings of the nation - it'll change & maybe soon - 'i' feel a revolution coming, where the people take back the country.  But in 'the meantime' it's going to get serious.  Because of the economy, lack of jobs & the way the gov has handled the last 6 years, until the populas wakes up to what's really going on in this country, 'which will take time', we're on a downhill road o disaster!
    Which happens 1st is questionable, unless 'we' see the voters display their wishes Tuesday.
*(( GO VOTe! ))*

We the people always have a voice because we the people elect our representatives.

That those representatives, on both sides, are bought out by special interests is a reflection on them as people, not on our system of government.

To pretend that electing one side over the other is going to change anything or make politicians be good people is not realistic.

AdaLeft,                                                                                                                                                               "WHAT DO "WE" DO!"

We do away with money in politics. Do away with lobbyists and influence peddlers.
Until we do that, politicians, all of them, both sides, serve the special interests, not the people.

Voting in new people only brings about more of the same system.  they may go in saying they aren't like that, but let's face it, they are all like that. 

I agree with the above AdaLeft but 'i'd like to add to the list;
limit elected terms to 2
they 'all' live, work, and recieve benefits the same as the rest of ""US" *note* [ That's how they got to feeling like they were better than the rest of "US" cause we treated them that way.]
Until they can be "trusted again" large national issues like health care & spending "OUR" money should be decided by the populas during normal elections.   :rolleyes: 'i' wish  ::)

QuoteTopic: DON'T BLAME THE UNDOCUMENTED WORKERS

How in the hell has this string got off the issue. ::O: ::O: ::O: ::O: ::O:

QuoteTopic: DON'T BLAME THE UNDOCUMENTED WORKERS

How in the hell has this string got off the issue. ::O: ::O: ::O: ::O: ::O:


My opinion is If we don't get this ILLEGAL immigration monster stopped within three years, it will rage like a California wildfire and destroy everything in its path, especially The American Dream.

...are we also a Democracy
not in the least sence of the word, "WE" have 'somehow' turned into a political state - were the people have "no" voice in the workings of the nation - it'll change & maybe soon - 'i' feel a revolution coming, where the people take back the country.  But in 'the meantime' it's going to get serious.  Because of the economy, lack of jobs & the way the gov has handled the last 6 years, until the populas wakes up to what's really going on in this country, 'which will take time', we're on a downhill road o disaster!
    Which happens 1st is questionable, unless 'we' see the voters display their wishes Tuesday.
*(( GO VOTe! ))*

... 'i' guess 'i' did't , sorry Willy!


:o  ::)  :-\  :confused:  ::O:  :rolleyes:  :smile:  ::;:

QuoteWhich happens 1st is questionable, unless 'we' see the voters display their wishes Tuesday.

OK Terry what do YOU see from the voters dispay, now that the election is over ????

"Disgust for "OUR" government in general - both parties"[/font
They just voted the way they did to show government 'they' still had a voice in this country; something both political parties have forgotten.
    It should have been a eye-opener for both parties.  Whenever "WE" get a chance to speak out, "WE" will.
    'i' expect to see alot more of the silent majority not being silent anymore.

"we" the people spoke out in 2008 when we elected a democratic president and maintained a democratic majority in Congress.  "We" the people spoke out again this time when they ousted democrats in the House.  We are all the people of America, no matter which political affiliation you have, and all of our values and concerns as Americans are equally valid, whether you are President Obama or Sarah Palin.

One election cycle one side has momentum, then next election cycle another side does, still, we are all America.

"we" the people spoke out in 2008 when we elected a democratic president and maintained a democratic majority in Congress:
The perfect scenario to get things done; & they did!  put "US" trillions in debt, instagated ball-outs for companys ( GM & wall street) they had no right to without "OUR" consent.  Since it was our money they squandered.  But the big question is HOW MUCH DID THEY MAKE DOING IT", believe me there was some large pay-backs to political factions/ under-the-table of course.  Is this the kind of gov. "WE" want?  Does gov. represent "US" 'R' do "WE" pay for all their mistakes?
The cart is in front of the horse!

My point was, WE the people put these people in office, be it republicans or democrats.  We've no one to blame but ourselves, whether it's debt, mandated health care, wars of choice, or any other gigantic mistake.

 AdaLeft
Newbie

Posts: 42
Re: DON'T BLAME THE UNDOCUMENTED WORKERS...they didn't write the rulebook
« Reply #110 on: Today at 04:41:36 PM »QuoteMy point was, WE the people put these people in office, be it republicans or democrats.  We've no one to blame but ourselves, whether it's debt, mandated health care, wars of choice, or any other gigantic mistake.
We gota continue this on "politics" or Willy will be whoffing on us again

QuoteRe: DON'T BLAME THE UNDOCUMENTED WORKERS...they didn't write the rulebook

Terry the UNDOCUMENTED WORKERS has no rights to tell the U.S. on how how the U.S. CITATIONS  TO  write the rulebook on who in the hell who can cross or boarders.

QuoteWilly will be whoffing on us again

Maybe Terry YOU might want to Wolff on yourself on you're on thoughts and opinion. ;D

mr.willy
What kind of medications "R" "U" on now?

QuoteAdaLeft
Newbie

Posts: 42
Re: DON'T BLAME THE UNDOCUMENTED WORKERS...they didn't write the rulebook
« Reply #110 on: Today at 04:41:36 PM »QuoteMy point was, WE the people put these people in office, be it republicans or democrats.  We've no one to blame but ourselves, whether it's debt, mandated health care, wars of choice, or any other gigantic mistake.
We gota continue this on "politics" or Willy will be whoffing on us again

What kind of medications "R" "U" on now TERRY again you cannot stay on the subject of DON'T BLAME THE UNDOCUMENTED WORKERS.  ?

What kind of medications "R" "U" on now TERRY
'i' ask "U" that 1st!
(  Terry the UNDOCUMENTED WORKERS has no rights to tell the U.S. on how how the U.S. CITATIONS  TO  write the rulebook on who in the hell who can cross or boarders. )
What was that, again?

QuoteTerry
Old Pro

Offline
Posts: 3312


Re: DON'T BLAME THE UNDOCUMENTED WORKERS...they didn't write the rulebook
« Reply #109 on: November 05, 2010, 04:33:45 PM »
Quote
"we" the people spoke out in 2008 when we elected a democratic president and maintained a democratic majority in Congress:
The perfect scenario to get things done; & they did!  put "US" trillions in debt, instagated ball-outs for companys ( GM & wall street) they had no right to without "OUR" consent.  Since it was our money they squandered.  But the big question is HOW MUCH DID THEY MAKE DOING IT", believe me there was some large pay-backs to political factions/ under-the-table of course.  Is this the kind of gov. "WE" want?  Does gov. represent "US" 'R' do "WE" pay for all their mistakes?
The cart is in front of the horse!

They had our consent, just as all Congressman do, they were elected.  That is how they get our consent. 

Legislation and decision making doesn't go to a vote of the people and go with majority, that isn't how our country works, nor would that work in America.

Quote from: AdaLeft on November 07, 2010, 01:05:58 PM
They had our consent, just as all Congressman do, they were elected.  That is how they get our consent. 

Legislation and decision making doesn't go to a vote of the people and go with majority, that isn't how our country works, nor would that work in America.

Who said America is working, 'i' think it's broke; and was suggesting a manner in which we'd get to have a decision on when & where gov spent trillions fo "OUR" dollars!
AdaLeft, did anone ever tell "U" , "U" were full of (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_0LWlqPPaX6A/SVnOFTD_4GI/AAAAAAAAAZE/MiLkqwAoEiA/s400/cowpie.jpg)

HOW DO YOU WINK @ AN ILLEGAL ALIEN?

(http://webmailb.netzero.net/webmail/new/21?folder=Inbox&msgNum=000009G0:001Cplqo00002rrF&count=1289165464&attachId=4)

Gun pointed @'m with one eye closed

Yes Terry because murder is so gosh darn funny.

Our founding fathers designed a brilliant form of government.  Do you really think you know better?

We have a say, we elect the representatives.  If they don't represent us, we need to vote someone else in.  That's how it works.

The idea that we would put legislation to a vote of the public for a majority rules is ludicrous.

If being right means I am full of whatever that picture is, then yes, I am.

AdaLeft, OK! enough, "U" win!

whatever that picture is
City boy!  ::D:

It's not a contest Terry, I don't win, I'm just right.

That is definitely a matter of opinion, & mine differs --- can "WE" just agree to disagree? & let it GO @ that?

 Missouri has NO illegal Aliens.


AMERICA... LISTEN UP & TAKE HEED!

  Missouri has NO illegal Aliens.... Missouri 's approach to the problem of illegal immigration appears to be more advanced,
sophisticated, strict and effective than anything to date in   Arizona .

Do the loonies in San Francisco , or the White House, appreciate what  Missouri has done?
When are our fearless President and his dynamic Attorney General going to take action to
require   Missouri start accepting illegal immigrants once again?

So, why doesn't   Missouri receive attention?

Answer: There are no Mexican illegals in  Missouri to demonstrate.

The "Show Me" state has once again shown us how it should be done.

There needs to be more publicity and exposure regarding what   Missouri
has done.

Let's pass it around.

    In 2007,   Missouri placed on the ballot a proposed constitutional amendment designating English as the official language of Missouri .
    In November, 2008, nearly 90% voting in favor! Thus English became the official language for ALL governmental activity in  Missouri .
    No individual has the right to demand government services in a language
OTHER than English.

    In 2008 a measure was passed that required the Missouri Highway Patrol and other law enforcement officials to verify the immigration status of any person arrested, and inform federal authorities if the person is found to be in Missouri illegally.  Missouri law enforcement offices receive specific training with respect to enforcement of federal immigration laws.

    In  Missouri , illegal immigrants do NOT have access to taxpayers benefits such as food stamps and health care through Missouri HealthNET.
    In 2009 a measure was passed that ensures   Missouri 's public institutions of higher education do NOT award financial aid to individuals who are illegally in the  United States .
    In   Missouri all post-secondary institutions of higher education to annually certify to the Missouri Dept. of Higher Education that they have NOT knowingly awarded financial aid to students who are unlawfully present in the United States .


   So while   Arizona has made national news for its new law, it is important to remember,  Missouri has been far more proactive in addressing this horrific problem.

     Missouri has made it clear that illegal immigrants are NOT welcome in the state and they will certainly NOT receive public benefits at the expense of   Missouri taxpayers.

Apparently, Terry's worries over illegal immigrants are more rooted in racism than anything else.

Quote from: mr.willy on October 27, 2010, 07:13:54 PM
...cannot disprove of  the facts that has been posted and no you will never exhaust me because YOU have no ability or rationally or facts to prove your issue on the illegal immigrates...

Going from that quote, how in the world can someone like Willy, who apparently can't put together sentence structure, grammar, spelling, or logic, expect anyone to take his thoughts on anything seriously?

Quote from: AdaLeft on October 12, 2010, 02:18:59 PM
So jlmer what extremes would you go to to make money to feed your family?  Would you skirt immigration law if someone was willing to pay you hundreds of times more than you could make at home?  Is it about disrespecting law or about providing for your family?

Ada, while your points about American companies hiring cheap labor and illegal immigrants wanting a better life and to provide for their families are well taken, they overlook some things.

It's difficult to have a country if said country cannot secure its borders.  We don't yet live in a world where countries and borders don't matter and aren't important.

It may be that America's immigration policies and border security with Mexico, or shall we say what appears to most people to be a lack thereof, have been based on keeping a somewhat stable country on our southern border.  I would propose that had America prevented the influx of illegal immigrants from Mexico or the influx of American dollars into Mexico from those illegal immigrants, Mexico would have long ago devolved into revolution and chaos...

...and we all should know that America has a long standing policy against popular revolutions.  They're communist, ya' know.  ; )

(http://webmailb.netzero.net/webmail/new/21?folder=Inbox&msgNum=00000O00:001Ctecm00003cN2&count=1290197858&attachId=4)