What are 'We' going to do?

[Y]

That's right...

What are we going to do when those of us who envision the promise of America as equality, fraternity, and liberty can't convince the opposition with facts, evidence, and logic that vision of America is one for which ALL of us should be striving?

Are we to use force against them?  Must we have another American Revolution/Civil War?

Must we tear this country asunder and divide it amongst the two basic camps?

I've spent years trying to move some people, and have watched as others have tried and tried to do the same.  I must admit, like others, I am thoroughly frustrated.

What can we do?

[Terry]

I've spent years trying to move some people, and have watched as others have tried and tried to do the same.  I must admit, like others, I am thoroughly frustrated.

Y, 'i' understand "U"r frustration.  The greedy ME, ME, ME generation is only concerned about it's self, this includes all ages & all occupations: especially those in government.  It's going to be a slow transition @ the least, and it may even be too late for that.
    A simple example of this attitude was recently displayed by the mortgage crisis.  People knew when they purchased they were over their heads (many-most-maybe only some), but then the government encourages the banks and finance companies to go along with it [ 120% of value ] that tells you right there where peoples heads were up their {well "U" know}. & " so who comes to the rescue", The level headed common sense tax payers that had nothing to do with any of it!!!!
    Yes! we're the silent majority *maybe not majority anymore* which makes "US" pay out the nose even more.
What can we do?
    It's going to get alot worse before it gets better { if it can } get better, so get a good grip on "U"r rearend or "U"ll end up loosing it!

PS also what's happened has made it impossible to invest & earn and that's what got our forefathers through.  "U" can't trust the stock market, banks, our government, or anyone else - when 2 large towers fell so did trust forever, and that was only  the beginning, it's got worse ever since.

[Terry]

= I don't get it at all =
~~~ NO-FLY zone ~~~
Gadhafi is the only one that could order the military air force to fly over 'his own' country and kill 'his own' people.
The world seems to be in agreement he must go.
Yet, based on the above 2 'assumptions' ; which we'd find out later than sooner if we implemented a no-fly zone the world is saying do it? don't do it?

Everything we need is setting there to stop Gadhafi from putting anything in the air to punish the protesters, and we'd stop it if he did - fly or no fly zone. I suppose implementing it would make it more appealing to some? If we can scuttle planes from the ground in the US to intercept unknown aircraft, I'm sure it would be easy enough there.

SO! I guess what makes the difference?

[Terry]

JUST GOES TO PROVE THE COUNTRY HAS GONE TO HELL!
Fred Phelps, founder of the Westboro Baptist Church, at his pulpit in 2002The Westboro Baptist Church (WBC) is an independent Baptist church known for its extreme stance against homosexuality [1] and its protest activities, which include picketing [[military]] funerals and desecrating the American flag.[2] The church is widely described as a hate group [3] and is monitored as such by the Anti-Defamation League and Southern Poverty Law Center. It is headed by Fred Phelps and consists mostly of members of his large family;[4] in 2007, it had 71 members.[5] The church is headquartered in a residential neighborhood on the west side of Topeka about three miles west of the Kansas State Capitol at 3701 West 12th Street, Topeka, Kansas, United States. Its first public service was held on the afternoon of Sunday, November 27, 1955.[6]

Did Kansas ever have a KKK? I got a job for them!

[Palehorse]

That's right...

What are we going to do when those of us who envision the promise of America as equality, fraternity, and liberty can't convince the opposition with facts, evidence, and logic that vision of America is one for which ALL of us should be striving?

Are we to use force against them?  Must we have another American Revolution/Civil War?

Must we tear this country asunder and divide it amongst the two basic camps?

I've spent years trying to move some people, and have watched as others have tried and tried to do the same.  I must admit, like others, I am thoroughly frustrated.

What can we do?

Clearly the forefathers meant for the vote of each individual in this country to take the place of warfare, and since 1865 it has accomplished this for the most part. Sure, different factions hold rallies and have spewed propaganda in opposition to each other, but in the end the collective voice of the American people has won out; to this point.

Now the SCOTUS has give an even larger voice to the faceless/soulless mighty corporation, and I fear that unless steps are taken to reverse this travesty, warfare is going to be the end result.

We see it in the middle east, and it is spreading each and every day. It is just a matter of time before it comes to this in the US, and I fear it will come sooner rather than later.

The underlying racial tension that is increasing due to those who refuse to open their minds and hearts is another factor in this simmering melting pot of a country, and despite the lessons we should have learned during WWII, there are those in leadership positions in this country who are endorsing a repeat of this country's historic mistakes. And we as a collective nation seem to be hell bent on doing so!

JUST GOES TO PROVE THE COUNTRY HAS GONE TO HELL!
Fred Phelps, founder of the Westboro Baptist Church, at his pulpit in 2002The Westboro Baptist Church (WBC) is an independent Baptist church known for its extreme stance against homosexuality [1] and its protest activities, which include picketing [[military]] funerals and desecrating the American flag.[2] The church is widely described as a hate group [3] and is monitored as such by the Anti-Defamation League and Southern Poverty Law Center. It is headed by Fred Phelps and consists mostly of members of his large family;[4] in 2007, it had 71 members.[5] The church is headquartered in a residential neighborhood on the west side of Topeka about three miles west of the Kansas State Capitol at 3701 West 12th Street, Topeka, Kansas, United States. Its first public service was held on the afternoon of Sunday, November 27, 1955.[6]

Did Kansas ever have a KKK? I got a job for them!

No, it proves that freedom of speech is still a right in this country!

You don't have to like or even agree with them or their messages, but if you expect to be able to speak out and have the right to support your beliefs, then you must also allow others those same rights.

If you disagree with Phelps, then why don't you join a group that disagrees with them? (Like I have)

= I don't get it at all =
~~~ NO-FLY  ~~~
Gadhafi is the only one that could order the military air force to fly over 'his own' country and kill 'his own' people.
The world seems to be in agreement he must go.
Yet, based on the above 2 'assumptions' ; which we'd find out later than sooner if we implemented a no-fly  the world is saying do it? don't do it?

Everything we need is setting there to stop Gadhafi from putting anything in the air to punish the protesters, and we'd stop it if he did - fly or no fly . I suppose implementing it would make it more appealing to some? If we can scuttle planes from the ground in the US to intercept unknown aircraft, I'm sure it would be easy enough there.

SO! I guess what makes the difference?

What business does this country have in undertaking yet another middle east theatre of operations, when it clearly cannot afford to continue the two it already has in progress? Minus a UN Declaration of War upon Libya there is nothing that can or will be done. The US cannot afford another war on another dictator, nor should it undertake such on its own. The UN and Libya's neighbors have the ability, and power to stop what is going on there, but at this point in time it seems clear that the duty falls directly upon the shoulders of the Citizens of Libya to remove this man from his position.

The US has a wealth of its own problems to take care of, and I for one believe that is exactly what we should do. Clean and straighten up our own house BEFORE we look at others!

[Terry]

WOW! Palehorse, did 'U' ever say a mouth full?
Rather than go back and makes notes, I'll be
using your script to induct my own.

Quote from Y was right on:

Clearly the forefathers meant for the vote of each individual in this country to take the place of warfare, and since 1865 it has accomplished this for the most part. Sure, different factions hold rallies and have spewed propaganda in opposition to each other, but in the end the collective voice of the American people has won out; to this point.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
collective voice of the American people...What happened to it? People have had things so good for so long they've forgotten all about the history of this country and what it means to be an American.  The same as our government, they have the attitude " YOU OWE ME!" and have become greedy self centered the ME! ME! ME! generation.  Nothing is discussed or spoken about until it becomes a personal  vain-debt.  Reason and common sense have been replaced with anger and pettiness.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Now the SCOTUS has give an even larger voice to the faceless/soulless mighty corporation, and I fear that unless steps are taken to reverse this travesty, warfare is going to be the end result.  ::;:

We see it in the middle east, and it is spreading each and every day. It is just a matter of time before it comes to this in the US, and I fear it will come sooner rather than later.

The underlying racial tension that is increasing due to those who refuse to open their minds and hearts is another factor in this simmering melting pot of a country, and despite the lessons we should have learned during WWII, there are those in leadership positions in this country who are endorsing a repeat of this country's historic mistakes. And we as a collective nation seem to be hell bent on doing so!
((Quote of my post))


JUST GOES TO PROVE THE COUNTRY HAS GONE TO HELL!
Fred Phelps, founder of the Westboro Baptist Church, at his pulpit in 2002The Westboro Baptist Church (WBC) is an independent Baptist church known for its extreme stance against homosexuality [1] and its protest activities, which include picketing [[military]] funerals and desecrating the American flag.[2] The church is widely described as a hate group [3] and is monitored as such by the Anti-Defamation League and Southern Poverty Law Center. It is headed by Fred Phelps and consists mostly of members of his large family;[4] in 2007, it had 71 members.[5] The church is headquartered in a residential neighborhood on the west side of Topeka about three miles west of the Kansas State Capitol at 3701 West 12th Street, Topeka, Kansas, United States. Its first public service was held on the afternoon of Sunday, November 27, 1955.[6]

Palehorse the above is exactly what has gotten this country where it is;  small minorities of people controlling and mandating the action, belief, and voice of others.  People that no longer respect the feelings of others and 'could give a damn' about any constitutional right instead of privilege the constitution provides.

No, it proves that freedom of speech is still a right in this country!
Freedom of speech is one thing = Freedom of action is another - if they can get someone to listen to their bull@#$& - fine, but don't try to push it off on me!  If there isn't already, there should be laws against them protesting at a funeral.  It would be interesting to see what happens if they should show up at a "Full Military" funeral ::)  :mad:
You don't have to like or even agree with them or their messages, but if you expect to be able to speak out and have the right to support your beliefs, then you must also allow others those same rights.
I DO!  just don't get in my face to do it 'or' I'll get in your face!
If you disagree with Phelps, then why don't you join a group that disagrees with them?{{ To me that would be like a white man joining the blacks to fight the KKK}} If you know 'it's wrong to do it, become a part of the solution directly not a part of the problem.
(Like I have)
............................................................
Gadhafi is the only one that could order the military air force to fly over 'his own' country and kill 'his own' people.
The world seems to be in agreement he must go.
Yet, based on the above 2 'assumptions'
if they were confirmed!!!---meaning a non-unilateral agreement
..................................................
What business does this country have in undertaking yet another middle east theatre of operations, when it clearly cannot afford to continue the two it already has in progress? Minus a UN Declaration of War upon Libya there is nothing that can or will be done. The US cannot afford another war on another dictator, nor should it undertake such on its own. The UN and Libya's neighbors have the ability, and power to stop what is going on there, but at this point in time it seems clear that the duty falls directly upon the shoulders of the Citizens of Libya to remove this man from his position.
I agree!
The US has a wealth of its own problems to take care of, and I for one believe that is exactly what we should do. Clean and straighten up our own house BEFORE we look at others!

I agree!

[Palehorse]

Terry:

Phelps and crew have shown up at full military funerals. That is one of the reasons the group I belong to was created; to shield the grieving family from the unacceptable messages and actions of Phelps and his crew.

What group is that? The Patriot Guard Riders.

Patriot Guard Riders Mission Statement

The Patriot Guard Riders is a diverse amalgamation of riders from across the nation. We have one thing in common besides motorcycles. We have an unwavering respect for those who risk their very lives for America's freedom and security. If you share this respect, please join us.

We don't care what you ride or if you ride, what your political views are, or whether you're a hawk or a dove. It is not a requirement that you be a veteran. It doesn't matter where you're from or what your income is; you don't even have to ride. The only prerequisite is Respect.

Our main mission is to attend the funeral services of fallen American heroes as invited guests of the family. Each mission we undertake has two basic objectives:


Show our sincere respect for our fallen heroes, their families, and their communities.
Shield the mourning family and their friends from interruptions created by any protestor or group of protestors.

We accomplish the latter through strictly legal and non-violent means.

To those of you who are currently serving and fighting for the freedoms of others, at home and abroad, please know that we are backing you.  We honor and support you with every mission we carry out, and we are praying for a safe return home for all.

http://patriotguard.org/

collective voice of the American people...What happened to it? People have had things so good for so long they've forgotten all about the history of this country and what it means to be an American.  The same as our government, they have the attitude " YOU OWE ME!" and have become greedy self centered the ME! ME! ME! generation.  Nothing is discussed or spoken about until it becomes a personal  vain-debt.  Reason and common sense have been replaced with anger and pettiness.

The bottom line is that Americans have collectively become lazy when it comes to doing their homework surrounding their personal decision process for choosing a candidate to vote for. Instead, we listen to the rancor and political mudslinging that flood the media, listen to the extremist talking heads who spin statements of candidates and elected officials into science fiction, and the end result is exactly what these idiots hope for; and emotional decision void of critical thought!

It appears the state of Indiana can be used as an example of what I am saying here, with the indictment of its newly elected Secretary of State for 7 felony crimes!

Instead of basing their decisions upon the facts and record of a given candidate, and their stand on issues that are important to them, voters, listen to the propaganda and let it stir their emotions, clouding their judgment. Result = the election of yet another scoundrel who is worse than the last!

Palehorse the above is exactly what has gotten this country where it is;  small minorities of people controlling and mandating the action, belief, and voice of others.  People that no longer respect the feelings of others and 'could give a damn' about any constitutional right instead of privilege the constitution provides.
Freedom of speech is one thing = Freedom of action is another - if they can get someone to listen to their bull@#$& - fine, but don't try to push it off on me!  If there isn't already, there should be laws against them protesting at a funeral.  . .
{ To me that would be like a white man joining the blacks to fight the KKK}} If you know 'it's wrong to do it, become a part of the solution directly not a part of the problem.

Again, their intentions are to emotionally stir up people so that they cannot see the truth. (See above) If we oppress them via legislation to restrict their words and right to peaceably assemble, then we do the same to ourselves. Better to meet their disrespect and abuses with silent vigilance designed to peaceably and legally restrict their ability to do so.

Unless you've been to one of these funeral where they have attended to demonstrate, (as I have), I fail to see how they are "in your face".  They are in your face because you allow them to be.

The courts have already decided that what they are doing is legal, so with this in mind we must resolve to do everything we can, as individuals and as a group, to "fight fire with fire" and legally create a counter message that effectively negates their mission and eliminates its proliferation. That is why I am a member of the Patriot Guard.

As far a Gadhafi is concerned, you must remember that country is a dictatorship and that dictator is Gadhafi. It is not a democracy with a constitution. If such is what the people of that country desire, then they have the duty and responsibility to remove him from office, and enlist the assistance of any global entity willing to assist them in installing a democracy once they have removed him.

[Terry]

That was an exceptional piece of literary presentiment!  And I agree with you wholeheartedly!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Other comments:
They're calling them rebel fighters, I don't go along with that they are :  "FREEDOM FIGHTERS!"
Don't you agree?
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
Patriot Guard.  kEEP up the good work.  I'm in Grnsbg, IN. far from all the action "I" think?  Had bikes all my life but none now.  Harley got to think'n they were better than me, I couldn't afford one.  Wish I'd kept the ones I had but the missus's said NO!

[Palehorse]

Other comments:
They're calling them rebel fighters, I don't go along with that they are :  "FREEDOM FIGHTERS!"
Don't you agree?
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
Patriot Guard.  kEEP up the good work.  I'm in , IN. far from all the action "I" think?  Had bikes all my life but none now.  Harley got to think'n they were better than me, I couldn't afford one.  Wish I'd kept the ones I had but the missus's said NO!

It makes no difference what buzz word phrase the media uses to describe them, the key is that the people of Libya have opened their eyes and their hearts/minds, and are now willing to fight for what they want out of their lives and their country. You have to love that no matter what they are called.

I am in Indiana, and there are a LOT of funeral that happen right here. You don't need a bike to join. Just the desire to oppose Phelps and crew. Membership is free, freedom and respect are not.

[Terry]

It makes no difference what buzz word phrase the media uses to describe them, the key is that the people of Libya have opened their eyes and their hearts/minds, and are now willing to fight for what they want out of their lives and their country. You have to love that no matter what they are called.
If 'U' say so?

I am in Indiana, and there are a LOT of funeral that happen right here. You don't need a bike to join. Just the desire to oppose Phelps and crew. Membership is free, freedom and respect are not.
My "TEMPER" wouldn't permit it!
When I see injustice I want to 'fight' back & I'm sure I wouldn't like jail food!

[Terry]

Constitutional Emergency

A message to all members of Constitutional Emergency
MG US Army (Ret)
www.standupamericaus.com
Chairman Stand up America

Begin forwarded message:


From: Kerry Patton
Date: March 11, 2011 1:41:18 PM MST
To: Scott Winchell
Cc: Paul Vallely
Subject: URGENT: CALL FOR ACTION

Scott, we need an immediate posting on SUA. PLEASE!!!! I will not stand for this crap in my state!
Stand Up America needs urgent assistance. Central Pennsylvania just witnessed a devastating and heartbreaking tragedy this past week. A farming community lost seven of its most precious children due to a house fire. Today, the Westboro Baptist Church as stated that they plan on protesting the funeral services for the Clouse family. Please come to honor the Clouse family during their time of mourning.
WBC plans to picket and protest the funeral of 7 innocent children. We, Stand Up America, will not stand for this. Show up, and let's form a barrier to shield the family and friends of the children from seeing or hearing the WBC. There will be closed-casket visitation at the reception center from 5 to 9 p.m. Monday and from 10 to 11 a.m. Tuesday. The service for the children of Theodore and Janelle Clouse will be held at 11 a.m. Tuesday at the Perry Mennonite Reception Center in Elliottsburg, PA.

Again, this is a PEACEFUL barrier. Let's show the WBC what true American Patriots are through respect and tact. No yelling, making obscene gestures, ect to members of the WBC. Their actions shall not stand when they see what a truly united faith centric people can achieve.
Please disseminate as fast as possible to all outlets to achieve the largest showing possible in support of this family and seven of God's greatest creations.
Kerry Patton

Visit Constitutional Emergency at: http://patriotsforamerica.ning.com/?xg_source=msg_mes_network